Harada: Officiele framedata van Tekken blijft geheim
Katsuhiro Harada heeft op Twitter gereageerd op de vraag of de framedata achter Tekken niet vrijgegeven kon worden. De vraag is de Japanner al veel vaker voorgelegd.
Framedata is alle relevante informatie achter een aanval zoals de snelheid van de aanval in frames, maar ook data zoals het exacte bereik. Terwijl onder andere de Virtua Fighter serie het weergeven van framedata in een Practice Mode ingebouwd heeft, blijft Harada tegenstander om deze data met spelers te delen. De Japanner vreest dat het veel impact zal hebben over hoe men het spel gaat spelen, welke characters aan populariteit gaan winnen en het aanmeten van een bijna "zielloze" speelstijl. Of kort samengevat: een aanzienlijke inkorting van de levensduur van de game, gezien er met zulke data veel minder ontdekt hoeft te worden. Harada besluit met de woorden dat hij geen mode in Tekken wilt waar alle framedata zichtbaar in is. Lees hieronder zijn exacte (maar vertaalde) reactie.
It is of course possible to display the frame data within the game but I wouldn't do it. Including the entire frame data (the time and range of an attack's data) into the game, there are things to consider when you give the player access to this data.
If players could easily have access to such data within the game, it will allow players to uncover and find out the intricacies and details about characters and their moveset much faster which can lead to an impact on the game's lifespan.
This also has an effect on the players who like to strategize and discuss the game's characters and balance since all their arguments will no longer be arguments since there will be the ultimate authority: a - 'word of god' in the game.
Harada brings up a small example 'scene' that he always see within the players from time to time. The example is that a skilled player and another player but isn't that skilled with the games are talking about a certain move and it's frame data (How bad is that move on block? For instance) within the game. They both give out what they think is the right frame data about a move but in most cases their answers will be different since there are players that base their information from different places. They could get the data from say their own study inside practice mode or from what they hear from other players as well as looking up the data on an internet website or strategy guide.
Harada cites a common phrase 'demo frame jan?' (it's a phrase that means 'but frame is X?' but in English we would normally say 'but isn't that move X frames?') that people like to use in discussing how bad a move is. However this is only a single piece of information within a move and doesn't account for other factors within the game like it's range or how long it takes for the move to come out. (will your jabs actually reach the -10 move you blocked?)
For example, in Soul Calibur the game's hand-to-hand weapon based combat system means the range on moves is typically long. You'll have to factor in move's frame data as well as the range of your character's moves if you want to punish certain attacks making punishment hard in such a game. Especially within matches since the player must factor in the information and calculate if he can punish a certain move in a fast paced instant. Therefore players tend to develop a 'sense' within playing the game in regards to dealing with moves.
Additionally in certain cases, some moves may have the same start-up frames but differ with their animation causing players to have trouble telling how bad a move may be on block. This instance in which a player may not know the data behind certain moves can form alternate strategies behind different players. So if a player doesn't realize he can punish a move because it is -14, he might opt to say run in and throw the opponent. The case in which he does not know the data forms a different outcome inside matches which is due to what an opponent knows and doesn't know. The different level of game knowledge between players is an important factor in fighting games.
If the frame data was displayed and freely available, every single player would easily have the 'answers' to moves and situations an opponent can throw at you basically.
Another example, if you were to look at Tekken 6 or TTT2 Heihachi's and only look at his frame data you may find out that he may not actually be a good character due to how bad his frame data may appear to be. (Given if you knew the frame data) However when playing against Heihachi inside a match, certain players may say that he has good moves since they feel that might not be able to punish an attack after blocking them since they see a bit of a 'heavy' guard after blocking it (this type of player feedback is considered quantitive data). As a matter of fact, Harada mentions that in T6 that they partially experimented with Heihachi's movelist to see the kind of impression his attacks would give to players.
Certain impressions like 'that move is scary after blocking it,' or 'that move is really punishable' that players tend to 'feel' in matches are important in the thinking process as players calculate and strategize with what they can get within the matches against an opponent.
Since the moves in the Tekken games tend to have differing data on start-up and on block, one of the more interesting elements in the games tend to be seeing how different opponents deal with the same situation in matches.
But seeing as that learning the frame data behind moves is an activity for the dedicated, hardcore players of fighting games, they will mostly already know most of the frame data and answers to situations so this isn't really an issue.
With that, if players knew the frame data along with the other factors that surround it behind moves, it may form players unconsciously playing in a 'flowchart' manner in matches. but if you don't know the frames and particulars behind certain moves, then seeing players discover new and different things and forming tactics and then using that new discovery inside matches and seeing if they succeed or fail is part of the fun of the Tekken games.
But in any case it seems to be that when the matches in fighting games get intense, players will often do certain moves without thinking about how bad it is or considering it's frame data.
When it comes to arguing the balance of the Tekken games, I don't consider players saying certain moves are bad only because of the frame data's numerical value. Because as I mentioned earlier, there a lot more factors in moves to consider like the animation, range, reach, if your opponent is sharp enough to block it etc.
If it does come to that case in which players judged a move only by it's frame date, I normally say 'You've judged in a position in which a human will pile in all that frame data, now judge them on whether or not they can act with it.' Players must evaluate a move on paper and in game being played by humans basically before considering balance changes.
So we concluded that we can't prove and make arguments for balance changes to the Tekken games solely on frame data that players may complain about. I consider whether or not these players understand the underlying context in which the moves are in to be important.
So it's for that reason that we don't display frame data in replay match recordings. If we did, I think that once you see all that data you will all be suprised as all the internet character ranking lists (tier lists) will be different from what they are now.
So that would be the conclusion right? Things would be different if we revealed the frame data. It would be a lot less interesting and reduce the fun since it will become the official Tekken bible among communities.
However the frame data in what oneself may feel about it, there are some good thoughts processes that you might run into like having a move with good frames (numerically) but you later find out that you hate throwing it out since it might have poor reach and sticks your character out into a scary postion (whiff) for example.
To reassert myself, I feel like I do not want a mode where you can see entire frame data in the game. (especially in a game like Tekken.)
Ik vind het niet meer dan logisch en zonder de framedatas blijft het spel veel interessanter, aangezien je dan zelf er achter moet zien te komen wat en welke moves sneller zijn en meer schade aanricht. Ik zelf vind het heel leuk om hiermee bezig te zijn en uit te zoeken wat het beste is tijdens een aanval en hou me vooral mee bezig. ^^ groeten Manu